The deadlock of the Minsk agreements and the games of the interested parties

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The Minsk agreements concluded in 2014, providing for a peaceful settlement in Donbass, stalled from the very beginning and so far not a single point has been implemented. The settlement format adopted then, in which Russia, Germany and France acted as guarantors, did not ensure the implementation of the political, military and administrative aspects of the agreements.

Over the past months, there has been a lot of noise around the agreements and statements that are involved in the conflict between the parties, talking about the next stage of exacerbation.



The question is, to what extent did the agreements meet the interests of the parties involved in the conflict and what goals did the parties pursue?

Surkov's revelations


In this regard, the revelations of the former Kremlin curator of Ukraine Surkov, who, on the instructions of the president, played the main role of the architect of the Minsk agreements, are interesting. They are also interesting because he expounds them in his interviews after his resignation, not being a civil servant.

In an interview on February 20, 2020, he said that back in 2013, long before the events began, it was felt that there was a serious struggle with the West around Ukraine, and in what borders or how many Ukrainians there would be - the questions are open and Russia will have to solve them one way or another. And to the question of whether Donbass will return to Ukraine, he gave a clear answer -

"Donbass does not deserve such humiliation, and Ukraine does not deserve such an honor."

That is, initially, the presence of Donbass as part of Ukraine was not seriously considered, and Surkov only confirmed this in subsequent interviews.

The most significant were the two interviews he gave in June this year. The first was on the June 12 telegram channel WarGonzo, in which he admires his work:

“The Minsk agreements are formulated in such a way that I cannot present agreements more profitable for Donbass… not only all European countries recognized them and America, but very quickly it became a document of the UN Security Council. Now you can't just brush them off ... This is one of the highest achievements of Russian diplomacy. "

Surkov stipulates that

“Actually, a special status is what this is all about. What is a special status, about which there is even a law passed? I am the author of this law, co-author together with Ukrainian comrades. "

According to him,

“This is the law of Ukraine that the laws of Ukraine do not apply to Donbass. This is the main thing in these agreements ... The maximum that Ukraine can claim, in my opinion, under these agreements is ... what I call symbolic sovereignty over Donbass. "

At the same time, the author is silent that the provisions on the "independence" of Donbass provided for by the agreements are, to put it mildly, strained, and this law has not yet been put into effect, the term is being extended every year, and another procedure for its extension is due in December.

Further, Surkov asserts that Ukraine “can only be returned by force” and the force can be different “Not only military. There is also the power of the special services, it is different. There is a so-called soft power ... There is a power of economic influence, political influence. " In this he is absolutely right, in the short term, without coercion, Ukraine itself will not reformat itself.

In a second interview on June 19 with the Financial Times, Surkov stressed that

“Ukrainians are well aware that at the moment their country does not really exist. I said that it could exist in the future ... I just ask the question, what should be the borders, the state border. And this should be the subject of international discussion. Until we achieve this result, the struggle for Ukraine will not stop. It can fade away, it can flare up again, but it will definitely continue. "

Surkov believes that the Minsk agreements are the first act that "legalized the first partition of Ukraine." This is the future of Ukraine, he sees:

"The country can be transformed into a confederation with great freedom for regions that can resolve issues on their own ... Ukraine is located directly between Russia and the West, and their geopolitical gravity will tear Ukraine apart."

He indirectly admits that the Minsk Agreements included requirements that were unfulfillable for Kiev.

In one of his conversations with journalists, he directly says that this was the hook on which Ukraine was hung and which was swallowed by the Western countries in an effort to preserve the "territorial integrity of Ukraine."

At the conceptual level, Surkov promoted the long-running idea of ​​the collapse of the political system of Ukraine from the inside through the introduction of a destructive core in the form of Donbass and Novorossiya, but relied on the corrupt Ukrainian elite, for whom this idea was like death.

Positions of the parties


It is worth recalling that Minsk-1 was signed in September 2014 after the defeat of the Ukrainian army in the "cauldrons" near Saur Mogila and the Ilovaisk militia of Donbass with the participation of several Russian battalion tactical groups, the composition of whose members was never disclosed, only Zakharchenko said on the eve that “in Donbass after training, 1 militias returned. "

Minsk-2 was signed in February 2015 after the defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Debaltseve "cauldron" and Poroshenko after stormy 16-hour negotiations, there was nothing left to do but sign an agreement. True, now is not 2014, and the situation in Ukraine and in the republics has fundamentally changed.

At that stage, the Russian leadership focused on the transformation of Ukraine into a federal (confederate) state, and the Donbass, returned to it with a special status, was to become the locomotive of this process. But these hopes did not come true.

The West was not going to give Ukraine in such a reformatted form, understanding what this would lead to, and used the Minsk agreements for its own purposes, hanging Russia on a hook, agreeing to the approval of the agreements by the UN Security Council. Russia now cannot withdraw from the agreements without violating the Security Council resolution adopted on its initiative.

They wanted to put a bridle on Ukraine, but they bridled themselves.

No matter how hard Surkov tries to show "a major diplomatic victory for Russia," the agreements turned into a stillborn document with irreconcilable and insurmountable contradictions that tied Russia's hands. The war has not ended, Donbass has become a territory unrecognized by anyone, which Russia cannot recognize or include in its composition, and even more so give it to Ukraine on the terms of the West, hence the duality of the position of the Russian state in the Ukrainian direction.

After seven years, it is clear that the Minsk agreements are a dead end. European guarantors do not influence this process in any way without the consent of the United States, and there is simply nothing to talk with them about. Only two great powers can resolve the Ukrainian crisis if they do, but so far no solution has been found.

The Americans needed the resisting Donbass to drag Russia into the war, until it succeeded. If they fail, they can defeat Russia in another area - agree to the inclusion of Donbass in Ukraine on the terms of agreements, and then the Ukrainian authorities will clean it up.

In this regard, the recent statement about the Donbass by the American "plenipotentiary" Avakov, who has returned to the political field, is interesting:

“I am deeply convinced that in the local elections there, in most cases, they will elect someone with openly pro-imperial views. But, from a strategic perspective, this is not so important. The main thing is to form a transitional administration ... The central government should come there together with the Ukrainian police forces ... Years will pass and we will cope with this, the situation will change ”.

Through Avakov, the Americans send the message that they are ready to recognize the agreements (officials in Washington have said this more than once). The Ukrainian authorities will have to pass all the necessary laws. Amend the Constitution and include Donbass in Ukraine, and after a year or two, cancel everything and completely clean up the rebellious territory. The parliament has more than enough forces for this.

This is the tactic of "gradual steps" proposed in 2014 by the deputy governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region Filatov:

"It is necessary to give any promises to the scum ... They must be hung later."

In this situation, the return of Donbass on the terms of agreements will lead to disaster, not immediately, but after some time, and Russia can hardly do anything, there will be no one to defend there.

If in 2014 it was still possible to assume the option of a peaceful return of Donbass, now after seven years of war, fierce confrontation and hatred for each other, it is difficult to imagine, or rather impossible. The Minsk agreements do not fulfill the function assigned to them, the Russian population of Donbass was held hostage to the situation, and every year it only gets worse. The decisions taken by Moscow on issuing Russian passports, opening up the Russian economic space and providing assistance somehow smooth the situation, but do not provide a fundamental solution to the problem of Donbass.

Since autumn, the guarantors of the Minsk agreements, Germany and France, have also taken a different position, stating that Russia is a party to the conflict in Donbass and must fulfill the obligations "imposed on it by the agreements." And this despite the fact that Russia is just like them, the guarantor of agreements and nothing more. They supported and support Ukraine in non-compliance with the requirements of the agreements and insisted on a meeting of the Normandy Four. Russia firmly adhered to the senselessness of such a meeting, since the decisions of previous meetings are not being implemented.

Merkel on November 18 expressed regret that the meeting never took place.

“I asked the Russian president to hold such a meeting while I remain chancellor. Unfortunately, this did not happen. So I regret it. "

In response, the Russian Foreign Ministry on November 18 published a correspondence with the German and French Foreign Ministries, from which it followed that the "guarantors" suddenly ceased to be satisfied with the language about the "internal Ukrainian conflict" and the "mediating role of Russia", and they were not ready to take responsibility for convincing Kiev to direct dialogue with Donetsk and Lugansk. That is, the European partners are officially reneging on their obligations to guarantee Ukraine's implementation of the Minsk Agreements.

Putin also reacted to this, saying at the Foreign Ministry collegium that

“In words, our partners in the Normandy Quartet - FRG, France, do not dispute the significance of the Minsk agreements. But in reality, unfortunately, they indulge the course of the current Kiev leadership to dismantle them, which leads the negotiations and the settlement itself, unfortunately, to a dead end. "

That is, at the highest level, Moscow recognized the Minsk agreements as a dead end, and Russia began to take appropriate steps.

Back in June, Lavrov's deputy Ryabkov made a statement that Russia does not object to US participation in the Minsk format if the Americans influence Ukraine to comply with the terms of the Minsk agreements. In November, Ryabkov reiterated Russia's proposal, which was followed by a duplicitous response from the White House press secretary, Psaki - the United States welcomes a peaceful resolution of the conflict in Donbas on the basis of the Minsk agreements, but no concrete steps followed.

Provocative statements from the West


On the contrary, the West began in November an increasingly serious aggravation of the situation around Russia and Ukraine, and in some ways it began to resemble the aggravation of this spring.
They began to intensely blackmail Russia from all sides and accuse Russia of contrived preparations for an invasion of Ukraine, and there are many examples of this, here are some of them.

American journalist Davis on November 13 in his article predicted the possible reaction of the United States in the event of a war between Russia and Ukraine. In a bad scenario, the situation could even lead to a catastrophic exchange of nuclear strikes between the powers. The Commander of US Strategic Command, Admiral Richard, said that the United States should prepare for a nuclear war with Russia, and Chief of Staff of the United Kingdom, Carter, in an interview on November 17, stressed that the risk of a war between the West and Russia is higher than ever, even more likely than during the Cold war.

In turn, British Prime Minister Johnson said on November 18 that the possible "military adventurism" of Russia near the borders of Ukraine and Poland would be a "tragic mistake", and on November 14, the British newspaper The Mirror reported that a British special forces task force of up to 600 people was ready to be deployed in Ukraine in the event of a Russian invasion.

US Department of State Chief Blinken met with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba and announced the movement of Russian troops near the border with Ukraine, warning Moscow against "repeating the 2014 mistake" when it "accumulated forces along the border, crossed it and infiltrated sovereign Ukrainian territory."

The American senator, head of the International Affairs Committee Menendez, on November 20 proposed to impose sanctions against Russia in the event that the Russian government carries out a military escalation or other hostile actions against Ukraine. The American edition of the WSJ reported on November 20 that US intelligence is serious about the threat of a Russian "invasion" of Ukraine, and Washington is pushing European partners to develop a package of measures to contain Moscow.

In addition, Ukraine began to strenuously pedal the adoption of a law on a transitional period in the Donbass, which contradicts the agreements and establishes the occupation regime of Kiev in the Donbass. Moscow warned that the adoption of this law would be regarded as Kiev's withdrawal from the Minsk agreements.

With its provocative actions, the West, on the one hand, provokes a local conflict between Russia and Ukraine in order to lower a new iron curtain from Russia, on the other hand, it tries to inflict the most serious reputational and diplomatic damage, fixing the image of the aggressor behind it.

Russia's answer


Russia had no choice but to defend its interests and give a worthy response to the blackmail and intrigues of the West.

At the Foreign Ministry collegium, Putin stressed that in recent years Western countries have begun to heed Russia's concerns and warnings.

“Our recent warnings are making themselves felt, they have a certain effect,” the president said. According to Putin, this state should be maintained as long as possible, "so that it would not occur to them to arrange for us on our western borders some kind of conflict that we do not need."

Putin accused NATO of destroying the dialogue mechanism, that the alliance is showing an emphatically confrontational attitude towards Russia, "persistently" bringing its military infrastructure closer to the Russian borders.

At a press conference on November 19, Lavrov said that the Russian side will not tolerate the encouragement of militaristic sentiments in Ukraine, which include the organization of certain military training missions. A spokesman for Peskov stressed that NATO made promises to Russia on non-proliferation further to the East, but did not fulfill the promises. According to him, at the moment there is a rapid process of arming Ukraine, which forces Moscow to respond.

The West's escalation of tension around Russia in an attempt to accuse it of preparing aggression against Ukraine with the imposition of a discussion about Moscow's desire to disrupt the implementation of the Minsk agreements, as well as a tough response from Russia to far-fetched accusations, suggest that the dead-end path of agreements no longer suits either the West or Russia ...

The past years have shown that a compromise between Russia and the West over Ukraine and Donbass on the basis of the Minsk agreements is impossible.

The Minsk process seems to have exhausted itself and is dying, the parties understand the futility of actions within the framework of the Minsk process and are trying to close it, accusing each other of violating the agreed provisions. Moscow needs a mechanism to terminate the agreements not on its initiative. The West and the Ukraine it is urging on needs the same thing, but through the fault of Russia, hence the mutual accusations of breaking the agreements.

So far, neither side has succeeded.

Hence the escalation of tension. At this stage, we are not talking about the implementation of agreements, but the struggle over whose fault they will formally or informally cease to operate. Moscow has come to the conclusion that there can be no compromise on Donbass in this format, and will look for other options.

With its latest statements, the Russian leadership demonstrates that it is not on its way with European guarantors and is not averse to discussing this problem with the American overlord of Ukraine.

A spokesman for Peskov on November 19 confirmed that the Ukrainian issue will be discussed at a meeting between Putin and Biden in December, as there are too many disputes over Ukraine. It is possible that at the meeting of the two leaders, Ukraine may become one of the main topics of negotiations to ensure global stability. To what extent they can find mutually acceptable solutions and the further fate of the long-suffering Donbass will depend.
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  1. +3
    30 November 2021 06: 17
    It is possible that at the meeting of the two leaders, Ukraine may become one of the main topics of negotiations to ensure global stability.
    Naturally, the meeting will be stupid. Why should anyone, but the Americans need global stability? All they do is shake region after region. We, in turn, have nothing to offer at this meeting that would interest them in the quality of the exchange. Well, except for China. For our turn in relations with this country, they will surrender Ukraine. Temporarily.
    1. -4
      30 November 2021 07: 26
      1. Donbass is destined to become a kind of Ukrainian Ulster, if there is no big war on the division of Ukraine.
      2. If so, this territory destroyed by the war will become part of Russia. Russia will receive sanctions and will be forced to economically "lie" under the PRC.
      3. There is an option that Biden will surrender Ukraine under a certain sauce of a "neutral country". Another question is that economically the Russian Federation will not pull another 20-30 million of the population ... just as it does not pull 146 million now. However, when did anyone in Moscow care)
      1. +5
        30 November 2021 08: 52
        Quote: Civil
        3. There is an option that Biden will surrender Ukraine under a certain sauce of a "neutral country".


        To surrender Ukraine means to abandon confrontation with Russia and start lifting the sanctions (i.e., the sanctions are tied to the Minsk agreements), will the American elite agree to this? I very much doubt this, especially when they are confident that they will squeeze Russia: pressure, sanctions, isolation, etc. (after all, our "elite" never went to the end, and always tried to maintain ties with the West, and this is 100% calculated ...), so I can't imagine how to solve this issue ... The Europeans and the Americans got scared of a big war and backed down with Ukraine and our red lines, or give up their positions themselves, and which of these options will be implemented, time will tell.
        1. 0
          30 November 2021 09: 00
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          so that the Europeans and the Americans are afraid of a big war and back down with Ukraine and our red lines, or give up their positions themselves, and which of these options will be implemented, time will tell.

          It is unlikely that Munich will ride again ... but something needs to be done ...
        2. +2
          30 November 2021 12: 39
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          To surrender Ukraine means to abandon confrontation with Russia and start lifting the sanctions (i.e., the sanctions are tied to the Minsk agreements), will the American elite agree to this? I very much doubt it

          Why not? Present-day Ukraine does not bear mattresses except for the brutes of supporting the Khuntikov regime (financial and political). The economic situation is deteriorating, which in the future will only increase the costs of the West to maintain this anti-Russian project with dubious benefits in terms of any benefit. The end of transit in 2024 will cut Kuev's foreign exchange earnings by another 2,4 billion dollars. The plans of the United States, which they initially set in terms of expelling the Russian fleet from Crimea and placing their base there, failed, and the involvement of Ukraine in the NATO bloc and the deployment of the NATO contingent on its territory was also covered with a copper basin. It turns out that for the United States, today's Ukraine really is a suitcase without a handle, which is hard to carry, but it’s a pity to leave, and besides, it is fraught with image losses, against the background of flight from Afghanistan. We must not forget that mattresses are great entertainers who can profit even from a corpse, especially if this corpse has a long-lasting effect in the interests of the United States. Having thrown off this "suitcase", the United States will pass over the worries of its maintenance and its normalization to the winner, and this is not one decade of colossal economic investments that will no longer go into the development of technologies, industry, the military-industrial complex, energy and infrastructure projects, etc. On the other hand, this will make it possible to accuse Russia of aggression and force Europe and the other sixes to curtail economic relations with Russia through an embargo and other troubles. In addition, the mattresses will still leave some part of this under-state under their control through the absorption by Hungary, Romania and Poland. If you look from this point of view, then the circle, from the "loss" of the United States looms one "gain".
          1. +2
            30 November 2021 13: 52
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            Why not? Present-day Ukraine does not bear mattresses except for the smut to support the Khuntikov regime (financial and political).


            It all depends on the goals, on the one hand, Ukraine is such an anti-Russia, which can be used as cannon fodder and on which Russia will have to spend its resources (military, political, economic, etc.) because it is very convenient when the Slavs are at war among themselves, and the Anglo-Saxons throw wood into the fire, this is the first moment.

            The second and most important is the sanctions regime against Russia and in this strategy Ukraine plays its role perfectly, where the main goal is to restrict the Russian Federation on the EU market and prevent its companies (Gazprom, Rosneft, Yandex, Sber, VK, etc.) their roots, + restrict the development of the country through sanctions ... and in this case, even unprofitable Ukraine will be useful.

            There is still a moment with the Ukrainian market, after all, now a war is going on for sales markets, and if Ukraine changes course and joins the EAEU, this will strengthen this economic bloc and give access to European markets, and then Moldova and Transnistria will suddenly want to join etc.

            So it all depends on the goals of the United States, and how ready they are for a real dialogue with Russia to determine the zones of influence.
            1. +4
              30 November 2021 18: 01
              Quote: Aleksandr21
              So it all depends on the goals of the United States, and how ready they are for a real dialogue with Russia to determine the zones of influence.

              I want to upset - the United States is not in the mood for such a dialogue, on the contrary, they are arming and financing Ukraine for a completely different purpose.
            2. -1
              1 December 2021 13: 36
              Quote: Aleksandr21
              So it all depends on the goals of the United States, and how ready they are for a real dialogue with Russia to determine the zones of influence.

              I guess you are too optimistic about the authorities of the "masters of the world" and their willingness to share.
              Unfortunately, there is only one way out of the Minsk agreements: war. And you need to try to make it so that it is neither long-lasting. nor unnecessarily bloody.
          2. -1
            30 November 2021 15: 55
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            The plans of the United States, which they initially set in terms of expelling the Russian fleet from Crimea and placing their base there, failed, and the involvement of Ukraine in the NATO bloc

            Do not blame the propaganda nonsense, it hurts ... why is NATO Crimea? Warships of non-Black Sea countries cannot be permanently deployed in the Black Sea, as a result of the base for Americans of a 0-sense (they could stir up the ships, they would build a base in Turkey, too), NATO so controlled a fairly large part of the Black Sea coast ...
            1. 0
              30 November 2021 17: 56
              Quote: parma
              Do not blame the propaganda nonsense, it hurts ... why is NATO Crimea? Warships of non-Black Sea countries cannot be permanently deployed in the Black Sea, as a result of the base for Americans of a 0-sense (they could stir up the ships, they would build a base in Turkey, too), NATO so controlled a fairly large part of the Black Sea coast ...

              Quote: Sad235
              May I ask you when the last NATO base was established? In 1993, we, a group of senior officers of the Western Group of Forces, were organized an excursion to Romstein, the NATO base in Germany. After what we saw, present the NATO base in the Crimea.? I beg of you

              Well then, you two have a question about filling, why did the United States announce a tender for the reconstruction of the premises of the former pioneer camp to accommodate the US engineering base in Sevostopol. Probably for sniffing dandelions?))) "The Americans announced the tender for the repair of the Sevastopol school on September 5, 2013, applications for participation were accepted until October 21, 2013. And on April 15, 2014, a month after the referendum on the peninsula, he was canceled. As stated, "due to the current situation in Ukraine. What pragmatic altruism, right?"
              1. +2
                30 November 2021 18: 46
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Quote: parma
                Do not blame the propaganda nonsense, it hurts ... why is NATO Crimea? Warships of non-Black Sea countries cannot be permanently deployed in the Black Sea, as a result of the base for Americans of a 0-sense (they could stir up the ships, they would build a base in Turkey, too), NATO so controlled a fairly large part of the Black Sea coast ...

                Quote: Sad235
                May I ask you when the last NATO base was established? In 1993, we, a group of senior officers of the Western Group of Forces, were organized an excursion to Romstein, the NATO base in Germany. After what we saw, present the NATO base in the Crimea.? I beg of you

                Well then, you two have a question about filling, why did the United States announce a tender for the reconstruction of the premises of the former pioneer camp to accommodate the US engineering base in Sevostopol. Probably for sniffing dandelions?))) "The Americans announced the tender for the repair of the Sevastopol school on September 5, 2013, applications for participation were accepted until October 21, 2013. And on April 15, 2014, a month after the referendum on the peninsula, he was canceled. As stated, "due to the current situation in Ukraine. What pragmatic altruism, right?"

                Is that possible point of material and technical maintenance (in order to prevent, for example, violation of the current legal norms on the location of a US Navy warship due to a breakdown in terms of timing) for you is equivalent to a military base? It's funny ... and yes, where does it say that this, for example, is not military assistance to the Ukrainian Navy?)
                1. 0
                  30 November 2021 19: 34
                  Quote: parma
                  Is that possible point of material and technical maintenance (in order to prevent, for example, violation of the current legal norms on the location of a US Navy warship due to a breakdown in terms of timing) for you is equivalent to a military base? It's funny ... and yes, where does it say that this, for example, is not military assistance to the Ukrainian Navy?)
                  Why dissemble? It is not for you to tell that a number of NATO countries have access to the sea and the corresponding capabilities to provide assistance to an American ship. I am more than sure that in the event of an objective problem for the ship and the crew, Russia would not refuse help either. Here the point is different, namely, that Ukraine actually renounced its non-aligned status and proclaimed a course towards joining NATO, which contradicts the same Budapest Memorandum. So shty, you yourself have scraped up the problem for yourself, and you have no one to blame except yourself.
                  1. +1
                    30 November 2021 19: 51
                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    namely, that Ukraine actually renounced its non-aligned status and proclaimed a course towards joining NATO, which contradicts the same Budapest Memorandum.

                    So now it will all the more begin to locate NATO bases at home, which it does under various guise.
                    Regarding the Budapest Memorandum, it is worth saying that Russia, according to it, has undertaken to do something.
                    1. +1
                      30 November 2021 22: 33
                      Quote: Overlock
                      Regarding the Budapest Memorandum, it is worth saying that Russia, according to it, has undertaken to do something.

                      Something is to observe territorial integrity and not to use nuclear weapons, which, in fact, was guaranteed by other US signatories with Great Britain, but these agreements, as it were, assumed the neutral status of Ukraine, which was violated by Ukraine, which practically gave the go-ahead for the deployment of a foreign military contingent on its territory. In addition, the legitimate government of Ukraine, which was the main beneficiary of the observance of the memorandum, was overthrown in an unconstitutional way in 2014, and therefore Russia's obligations to Ukraine ceased to be relevant, since the junta is neither a power nor a guarantor. All subsequent decisions and laws adopted by the junta after 2014, according to the Constitution of Ukraine, are illegal. These idiots are engaged in everything, including the sale of land, but to this day they have not bothered to legally substantiate and formalize Yanukovych's resignation. By the way, isn't the fact of lifting the moratorium on the sale of Ukrainian land a violation of the Budapest Memorandum? And then somehow it turns out that the regions and regions cannot violate the integrity, but with handfuls and dump trucks it is possible.
                  2. +1
                    30 November 2021 23: 22
                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    Why dissemble? It’s not for you to tell that a number of NATO countries have access to the sea and the corresponding capabilities to provide assistance to an American ship. I am more than sure that in the event of an objective problem for the ship and the crew, Russia would not refuse help either.

                    Well, for starters - the last such case happened in 2014 (if memory serves), then the US Navy ship ran aground and damaged the propellers ... no help from Russia followed, on the contrary, a protest was expressed, maybe the ship spent in the Black Sea not 3, but 5 weeks. it should be noted that he spent most of his time on repairs in a dry dock in Turkey, those are legally outside the Black Sea, they formally already have the opportunity to keep ships for more than 3 weeks in the Black Sea and without any Ukraine ...
                    Even the presence of a US / NATO base on the territory of Ukraine does not make it legally a member of NATO, so the thesis is also nonsense ...
                    And yet - I am from Russia, and for the sake of a beautiful rating of the president, we really grabbed a lot of problems with Ukraine, and the worst thing is that it will not be Putin who will solve this problem, but his replacement / successor ... it is generally sad that in order to maintain the power of the current head of state until death, problems are created for the country after it ...
                    1. +1
                      30 November 2021 23: 37
                      Quote: parma
                      And yet - I am from Russia, and for the sake of a beautiful rating of the president, we really grabbed a lot of problems with Ukraine, and the worst thing is that it will not be Putin who will solve this problem, but his replacement / successor ... it is generally sad that in order to maintain the power of the current head of state until death, problems are created for the country after it ...
                      Well, then let's put forward a claim against Empress Catherine. Maybe then there was no need to fight for the Crimea and conclude the Kyuchuk Kainardzhi treaty with Turkey on the transfer of Crimea to the Russian Empire? How many "problems" could have been avoided that we are still "unraveling"? Let's finish for this. hi
                      1. +1
                        1 December 2021 09: 47
                        Quote: Nyrobsky
                        Well, then let's put forward a claim against Empress Catherine. Maybe then there was no need to fight for the Crimea and conclude the Kyuchuk Kainardzhi treaty with Turkey on the transfer of Crimea to the Russian Empire? How many "problems" could have been avoided that we are still "unraveling"? Let's finish for this.

                        You did not quite understand my thesis, it concerns not only Ukraine ... the whole problem is that the guarantor is no longer young and wants to calmly (without especially big difficulties with solving current problems) to live out the remaining time in power ... this applies not only to Ukraine, but to the whole other foreign and domestic policies ... it is necessary to fill the budget and reduce costs - an increase in the retirement age and a freeze of pensions for working people, the issue with the Nord Stream is also hanging in the air (and will hang, because it is tied to sanctions, which in turn are tied to Crimea and Ukraine as a whole), the migration issue is not being resolved, the oppression of Russian speakers in Central Asia is also hanging in the air, the question of “who is after Putin” is generally frozen and any raising of it is suppressed ... this is all a general structural crisis ...
                    2. +1
                      2 December 2021 19: 42
                      I apologize, but again I could not resist .... 1. Legal nuances and rules of the so-called. world order and international law over the past ten years have become cheaper than the paper on which they are spelled out and the main merit in this is exclusively the Americans and their allies. 2. About the problems with Ukraine ... You wrote about the president's handsome rating, which entailed problems, as well as the numerous sufferings of our people and country ?! Do you think that without strengthening the rating (Crimea, Dobass, etc.) today Russia would be a friend of Europe and a brother of the United States ?! Don't be so naive .... And yet ... in the history of our country there have been many periods when this very "rating" had to be raised and was raised despite the hardships and difficulties. And among the citizens of the state there have always been statesmen and ordinary people. Some thought for centuries to come, others about a full stomach at lunchtime and a warm bed in the evening. Moreover, there is absolutely no need to condemn the latter, this is life and they are a part of it.
                      The former were rarely loved during their lifetime, but they are now proud and proud after the conquests of Siberia, Central Asia, the Caucasus, worshiped during victories in wars and cursed for the lack of jeans and chewing gum ... So today the country is going through a period very similar to our past: Mazepa's betrayal , Entente, the recent Cold War! Therefore, the generations living today, as well as our ancestors, inherited such "brothers", "neighbors" and "friends"! You must accept this and build your future life in YOUR interests, without looking at the fact that suddenly someone says something and thinks .... all this has already happened!
                      1. 0
                        3 December 2021 07: 52
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        1. Legal nuances and rules of the so-called. world order and international law over the past decade have become cheaper than the paper on which they are spelled out and the main merit in this is exclusively the Americans and their allies

                        Is it only the west? It is possible at this moment in more detail, since such a loud statement ...
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        About the problems with Ukraine ... You wrote about the president's handsome rating, which entailed problems, as well as the numerous sufferings of our people and country ?! Do you think that without strengthening the rating (Crimea, Dobass, etc.) today Russia would be a friend of Europe and a brother of the United States ?!

                        Hmm, a partner could have been and were ... everything began to change in 2007 (after one speech of our leader at an unimportant sumit, such criticism [in my opinion not very oo and justified] has not been since Khrushchev and the Caribbean crisis, probably), then even one of the American politicians said that with this speech, the President of the Citizen did more to bring the Europeans and the United States closer than they could have done in 10 years ... but even after the speech everything went + - well, because European politicians are most afraid of destabilization and war in Europe ( even a small one), in 2008 who does not remember Russia was on horseback after Georgia, then the Europeans openly admitted that peace enforcement was a violation of international law, but Georgia acted as provocateurs. But in 2014 there was Crimea ... I think even then our leadership would have played the same card, mb, and it would have been good, but the authorities decided “we need to force the Russian world and raise the ratings” ... But to be honest - events similar to the 2008 war and the Maidan 2014 for the CIS, the norm, but for some reason our country does not really climb into Central Asia ...
                      2. +2
                        3 December 2021 11: 57
                        It's trite, but .... Iraq, the country was destroyed because of the test tube, Libya because of the clever Colonel, Yugoslavia, and so that they don't raise their tail and try to solve their problems themselves, Afghanistan because of the "Arab pilots". Where without UN sanction, and where with sanction, but after the kick of the UN itself in the ass ... It is impossible not to note the "legal right" of the United States to steer in the Chinese garden, drive North Korea, declare commerce a policy and impose sanctions on the pipe between the two, I emphasize , independent states, to declare their desire to gnaw off the SEVmorput from Russia, of course, only for the good of the whole world !!!! And the last thing, "..... Russia cannot have spheres of influence !!!" ... We cannot be partners because we are essentially different, in mentality, in history, in relation to the world around us. We can coexist side by side, but subject to the rules that must be prescribed and followed. Otherwise, after some time, a lonely surviving butterfly will quietly flutter over the cooling surface of our Earth .... And the Americans understand this very well. Their goal is to strain us without crossing the notorious "red lines", ours is to build our understandable forward movement. At the moment, not Central Asia, but "fraternal" Ukraine creates problems for us and we solve them the way we solve them. I agree, there are tactical mistakes, but a strategic goal has been identified, and we are moving towards it. There will be problems in Asia, we will solve them ...
                      3. -1
                        3 December 2021 13: 04
                        Frankly speaking, it follows from what you have said that you have decided that international agreements are null and void because:
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        Iraq-country destroyed because of a test tube

                        If you don't remember, the invasion was carried out with the consent of the UN, even our country voted FOR! Are those standards met? Yes ... Did Iraq have weapons of mass destruction? In the 80-90s, he used it more than once against his own dissenting citizens, including ... was it in the early 2000s? It was not clear, maybe Iraq was reluctant to let international experts in, declared about the absence of weapons of mass destruction, but old missiles were found every now and then (I emphasize once again - the old ones were immediately destroyed, but there were cases just before the invasion)
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        Libya because of the clever Colonel

                        In fact, the civil war began in the country, the "smart" colonel decided to drown the rebels in blood (in neighboring Egypt, the dictator left and lived peacefully until he died of old age), the UN did not appreciate and intervened ... our country had the right of veto (China, for example too), but no one dared to save the colonel ... probably it was not worth sponsoring terrorists and declaring jihad (although I myself sympathized with Gaddafi, or rather his image 10 years ago)
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        Yugoslavia - so that they don't raise their tail and try to solve their problems themselves

                        And I thought Yugoslavia collapsed 7 years before NATO strikes ... and the alliance was bombed by Serbia (under a different name), not Yugoslavia ... and then I remember we weren't against it, and Russian paratroopers also participated in the peacekeeping contingent ...
                        You have forgotten about Afghanistan ... but there was also a UN decision, we did not veto again ...
                        Forgot Syria, where, in exchange for the UN decision not to send troops, Assad abandoned weapons of mass destruction (or do you believe that in 4 years from 2011 to 2015, until we brought in troops, NATO would not have overthrown the doctor if desired?)
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        We cannot be partners because we are different in essence, in mentality, in history, in relation to the world around us.

                        Nonsense of propaganda ... Russia has always been and will be a part of Europe, we have always been and will be culturally close to Europe, at least because our values ​​were formed under the influence of Christianity, albeit of different branches ...
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        Otherwise, after some time, a lone surviving butterfly will quietly flutter over the cooling surface of our Earth ...

                        The total available stock of nuclear weapons is not enough to "glaze" our ball, but it will be enough to make the conditional Argentina and Madagascar one of the most developed countries on the planet, by self-sawing more "civilized" countries ...
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        At the moment, not Central Asia, but "fraternal" Ukraine creates problems for us and we solve them the way we solve them. I agree, there are tactical mistakes, but a strategic goal has been identified, and we are moving towards it. There will be problems in Asia, we will solve them ...

                        It was not Ukraine that created problems for us, but we created them for ourselves and for Ukraine (coups, revolutions, etc. are a normal phenomenon for the post-Soviet space, even in our country in the first 10 years there have been 2 coup riots and 2 mini civil wars with a separate entity, now conflicts of this subject with neighboring ones are actively swinging)…. And the problems in Central Asia we have like the Chukchi of snow - here you and migrants who will make you assimilate (just like in Europe, and you say we are different), and the squeezing of persons of Slavic nationality (he himself moved from Kazakhstan a quarter of a century ago) with a ban even speak Russian, and civil wars and wars with neighbors ... and you are all "Ukraine, Ukraine" ... 10 years ago, Russian was the main language of the Russian world, it gave a huge economic and marketing plus to the goods and products of our production (banal films, songs, books , computer games, Internet resources, etc.), but as soon as the guarantor's management played the card of "protection of the Russian language", all the surrounding leaders understood that Russian is not only an opportunity to use informational goods produced for Russia for free (let's say now it is necessary to translate the Russian TV series into, say, Turkmen ), but also the ability of the guarantor to interfere in the affairs of neighbors ...
                        PS: do not remind me who last used the protection card for "native speakers" in a neighboring country and what did it lead to?
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        build your clear movement forward

                        In fact, the standard of living has not grown over the past 10 years, we are now at the level of 2008, at the level of the reign of the "weak-willed lover of iPhones" even fell ...
                      4. +2
                        3 December 2021 23: 26
                        Maybe you confused the country when moving from Kazakhstan ??? I think it would be much more comfortable for you to live somewhere in the Baltics or in the notorious, as you noted, Ukraine. At worst, in the United States or Kosovo .... it was the former who made the latter, like, a country. But, as I believe, neither there nor there you were not needed and you were sheltered by greedy, aggressive, poor and stupid Russia ... It is strange that with such knowledge in our lagging behind in the economy, space, the influence on the states around us, you have chosen this dying entity. Those problems with the subjects you are writing about were difficult, but they were resolved, as many others in our history were resolved. Our silence or the encouragement of military adventures that happened before is just the merit of either a drunkard or a weak-willed lover of iPhones ... Nobody took them seriously and did not pay much attention to them. You perfectly understand what I mean, but you literally highlight them as historical figures. Let's remember then False Dmitry, Otrepiev, Rasputin and others, only then don't forget Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Pozharsky and Minin!
                        Regarding the power of NATO and its capabilities .... Could overthrow Assad-would be overthrown! Could smudge us-smudge! Obviously they cannot, and even more obviously they are afraid! Tryndet about aggressive Russia - one thing, to fight with her, is quite another! It is on this occasion that the Americans are "fighting" with us to the last Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Pole and German. And about the UN and its role in the modern world order, says its budget, its sponsor and its decisions. Gaddafi in his fight against the rebels had to be destroyed, Poroshenko in his fight against the Donbass is not necessary to destroy .... By the way, Putin in his fight against the Chechen rebels, the UN and NATO did not begin to destroy! Therefore, "rebels" are different, like the assessments and actions of the UN ... Look more broadly at what is happening, love the country in which you live and everything will be clear and understandable for you!
                      5. -2
                        4 December 2021 00: 32
                        Quote: Sebastian Aristarkhovich Pereira
                        Maybe you confused the country when moving from Kazakhstan ??? I think it would be much more comfortable for you to live somewhere in the Baltics or in the notorious, as you noted, Ukraine. At worst, in the United States or Kosovo .... it was the former who made the latter, like, a country. But, as I believe, neither there nor there you were not needed and you were sheltered by greedy, aggressive, poor and stupid Russia ... It is strange that with such knowledge in our lagging behind in the economy, space, the influence on the states around us, you have chosen this dying entity. Those problems with the subjects you are writing about were difficult, but they were resolved, as many others in our history were resolved. Our silence or the encouragement of military adventures that happened before is just the merit of either a drunkard or a weak-willed lover of iPhones ... Nobody took them seriously and did not pay much attention to them. You perfectly understand what I mean, but you literally highlight them as historical figures. Let's remember then False Dmitry, Otrepiev, Rasputin and others, only then don't forget Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Pozharsky and Minin!
                        Regarding the power of NATO and its capabilities .... Could overthrow Assad-would be overthrown! Could smudge us-smudge! Obviously they cannot, and even more obviously they are afraid! Tryndet about aggressive Russia - one thing, to fight with her, is quite another! It is on this occasion that the Americans are "fighting" with us to the last Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Pole and German. And about the UN and its role in the modern world order, says its budget, its sponsor and its decisions. Gaddafi in his fight against the rebels had to be destroyed, Poroshenko in his fight against the Donbass is not necessary to destroy .... By the way, Putin in his fight against the Chechen rebels, the UN and NATO did not begin to destroy! Therefore, "rebels" are different, like the assessments and actions of the UN ... Look more broadly at what is happening, love the country in which you live and everything will be clear and understandable for you!

                        It is clear that the arguments ended and they decided to hide behind "patriotism", to decide who is worthy of citizenship and who is not ... it is sad that in the 21st century our country is slipping to something like this, when one (apparently not too literate and well-educated) citizen indicates another (by the way, equal in rights) where to live and where not ... it is easy to see enemies and the guilty everywhere, it is difficult to admit your mistakes ...
                        PS: if you turn on your head and think, you will understand that Europeans and Americans need our country to be stable and quite economically developed, because we have a population of 146 million and a nuclear environment ... which means this is either a good sales market or a difficult enemy ..
                      6. +1
                        4 December 2021 13: 42
                        Quote: parma
                        if you turn on your head and think, you will understand - Europeans and Americans need our country to be stable and quite economically developed, maybe we have a population of 146 million and a nuclear environment ...
                        Exceptional nonsense! Are the USA and Europe asleep and see how it would be more comfortable to raise an economic and military-political rival for themselves? Have you heard anything about the fact that the United States has identified Russia as enemy number 1? Or they have never heard that some Western leaders have speculated aloud that the ownership of Siberia by Russia is a historical injustice and that all "humanity" should own it, clearly meaning by "humanity" exclusively itself. No "parma", they do not need a stable Russia, they need that Russia would not exist at all. Back in December 1917, France and England were considering the partition of Russia. On August 15, 1918, the United States made a statement that Russia had ceased to exist, after which it landed its troops in Vladivostok. Republican Senator Miles Poindexter, calling for intervention, declared - "Now Russia is just a geographic concept and it will never be anything else! Its power of cohesion, organization and reconstruction is gone forever. The nation does not exist ..." "the French, British and Japanese also rushed (14 countries in total). Snatching in the face, those interested in "a stable and economically developed Russia" crawled for the time being in their burrows.
                      7. +2
                        5 December 2021 20: 58
                        It is clear that they decided to take the mothballs curse out of the bag of arguments from modern Russian liberals and
                        there is no homegrown Westernizers-there is no patriotism, there is only "patriotism"! Let me tell you, this is not new and is very reminiscent of a greasy deck of cards. You shouldn't practice this "trick"! Patriotism is bad for those who love themselves but do not love the country. And he loves himself like Vasisualy Lokhankin with Ilf and Petrov .... Remember, "Vasisualy Lokhankin and his role in the world order", "Vasisualy Lokhankin and his influence on the role of Russia in the Minsk process" ... "... resolving the conflict between Russia and Europe ", then, as you please!
                        Second, I don’t decide anything for you, and I didn’t decide anything, especially with your citizenship. I do not indicate where you live, but the mood and views of a person who found his homeland 20 years ago are surprising to me, which I noted. But to assess my education and upbringing is definitely an example of "high" tact and "education"!
                        And third ... For the United States, this has long been an absolute truth: "a good Indian is a dead Indian." Just in case, this also applies to you, although you consider yourself not that Indian, but, of course, a partner of America and Europe .... True, they do not know about it!
                      8. 0
                        4 December 2021 12: 56
                        Good comment by Sebastian Aristarkhovich! Everything in color, neither add nor subtract good
                      9. +1
                        5 December 2021 21: 00
                        Thank you for your kind words, I also acknowledge your deep knowledge of the material ...
                2. +1
                  2 December 2021 19: 24
                  I also apologize, but what and when prevented the United States from turning the MTO point into a base similar to the Afghan one ??? There is a saying: the claw is stuck, the whole bird is gone! And there are hundreds of such "birds" around the world! Even where radioactive ash was quietly falling on the sakura leaves yesterday ...
              2. +3
                30 November 2021 19: 49
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Well then, you two have a question about filling, why did the United States announce a tender for the reconstruction of the premises of the former pioneer camp to accommodate the US engineering base in Sevostopol.

                And why is the base in Sevastopol better than the base in Sumy or Kharkov?
                1. +1
                  30 November 2021 22: 11
                  Quote: Overlock
                  Quote: Nyrobsky
                  Well then, you two have a question about filling, why did the United States announce a tender for the reconstruction of the premises of the former pioneer camp to accommodate the US engineering base in Sevostopol.

                  With what is the base in Sevastopol better than the base in Sumy or Kharkov?

                  Yes, actually all... Sumy and Kharkiv are land, and Crimea is a completely finished infrastructure and control over the sea. In my opinion, the comparison is incomparable.
          3. 0
            30 November 2021 16: 22
            May I ask you when the last NATO base was established? In 1993, we, a group of senior officers of the Western Group of Forces, were organized an excursion to Romstein, the NATO base in Germany. After what we saw, present the NATO base in the Crimea.? I beg of you
            1. +2
              30 November 2021 18: 04
              Quote: Sad235
              Can I ask youwhen the last NATO base was created. In 1993, we, a group of senior officers of the Western Group of Forces ... (hereinafter referred to as the text)

              Can. One of the last bases was created on the ruins of Yugoslavia near the city of Uroševac in 1999, for the needs of the US Air Force and NATO, whose name is Camp Bondsteel. By the way, the Afghan drug traffic of the USA to Europe worked precisely through this base, from Bagram, without any checks. Yes
          4. +3
            30 November 2021 18: 05
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            The plans of the United States, which they initially set in terms of expelling the Russian fleet from Crimea and placing their base there, failed, and the involvement of Ukraine in the NATO bloc and the deployment of the NATO contingent on its territory was also covered with a copper basin.

            A very controversial argument.
            1. On the base in the Crimea, bring the source
            2. About NATO bases in Ukraine-

            There will be more further, unfortunately
            Quote: Nyrobsky
            and besides, it is fraught with image losses, against the background of flight from Afghanistan.

            They fled to escape, but threw off all military equipment. Where will this weapon fire?
            1. 0
              30 November 2021 18: 27
              Quote: Silvestr
              A very controversial argument.
              1. On the base in the Crimea, bring the source

              Good evening Sylvester. Just above your comment, I posted a screenshot of the Tender announced by the United States, which is by no means classified information and was quite openly in the public domain. The mattresses, accustomed to lingering discontent on the part of Russian officials, did not even consider it necessary to hide their intentions, which, incidentally, burned out when Russia quite quickly cut off their claims.
              Quote: Silvestr
              2. About NATO bases in Ukraine- (further picture)
              It must be admitted that these flags indicate the presence of American military units (instructors, advisers, etc.), but not the base in their understanding. Although, they have repeatedly voiced their intentions to acquire a full-fledged base in the same Nikolaev.
              Quote: Silvestr
              They fled to escape, but threw off all military equipment. Where will this weapon fire?
              The question is interesting, considering that among the persons representing the current government in Afghanistan are people who rattled off real terms in the American "Gulag" and were released just before the Taliban negotiations with mattresses in Doha. Perhaps there is a double bottom game going on here. what
              1. +1
                30 November 2021 18: 32
                Good evening!
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Just above your comment, I posted a screenshot of the Tender announced by the United States, which is by no means classified information and was quite openly in the public domain.

                I saw him back in 2013. Then it was a lot, today it is not enough. Obama didn’t bother about Crimea.
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                It must be admitted that these flags indicate the presence of American military units (instructors, advisers, etc.), but not the base in their understanding.

                And nobody knows that. Even the leadership of Ukraine does not have access to the base in Ochakov; the US Marine Corps is 1 km away.
                In addition, there are about 10 bacterial laboratories, one near Kharkov
                Quote: Nyrobsky
                Perhaps there is a double bottom game going on here.

                I am sure that under certain circumstances, the famine in Afghanistan and the blockade of Taliban finances, the United States will make them an offer ...
                1. +1
                  30 November 2021 18: 59
                  Quote: Silvestr
                  I saw him back in 2013. Then it was a lot, today it is not enough. Obama didn’t bother about Crimea.
                  Was there any point in pushing against Obama? Whatever one may say, for any state there is a critical value for self-preservation, for the sake of which all resources - financial, military and human - can be sacrificed. Do you really think that Ukraine is so important to the United States that they are ready to endanger their existence?
                  Quote: Silvestr
                  And nobody knows that. Even the leadership of Ukraine does not have access to the base in Ochakov; the US Marine Corps is 1 km away.

                  The all-seeing eye of the satellite still makes it possible to assess the degree of threat, and the availability of means of destruction and methods of their delivery have long made this territory near Ochakov one of the priority targets for the first (preventive, retaliatory ...) strike.
                  Quote: Silvestr
                  In addition, there are about 10 bacterial laboratories, one near Kharkov

                  This is already serious, but I must admit that the laboratory is not a military base, although ... the hell of a radish is not sweeter.
                  Quote: Silvestr
                  I am sure that under certain circumstances, the famine in Afghanistan and the blockade of Taliban finances, the United States will make them an offer ...
                  Let's say more. Despite the indicative cut off of contacts with Kabul, the United States has already opened its office in Doha precisely in order to resolve issues with the Taliban on a regular basis. So certain graters of mattresses with beards go without stopping. There is still no other government in Afghanistan and they will have to recognize the bearded, but apparently after bargaining for themselves certain buns. The Taliban also know about this, and therefore they are not in a hurry to bargain. Here the "flag" was thrown out about the fact that they very much respect the expression of the will of the Crimeans and have nothing against the fact that Crimea is part of Russia. It seems that it is not quite official recognition, but it seems that it is almost, almost, which cannot but "please" the United States. It is only in appearance that Afghanistan is a country of tramps, and if you take into account the population of more than 30 million and the continuing interest of the leading powers, it has something to offer and something to bargain about. So far, China and Russia are leading the foreign agenda of Afghanistan, which is an annoying factor for the Americans, to overcome which they will have to unfreeze their accounts and officially recognize the current Taliban government. No one pulled Beadon's tongue, which justified the conclusion of the Americans by the fact that their mission in the fight against terrorism has been successfully completed. If so, then who are the Taliban? Not terrorists anymore? lol
                  1. +1
                    30 November 2021 19: 59
                    Sorry for intruding on your dialogue.
                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    Was there any point in pushing against Obama? Whatever one may say, for any state there is a critical value for self-preservation, for the sake of which all resources - financial, military and human - can be sacrificed. Do you really think that Ukraine is so important to the United States that they are ready to endanger their existence?

                    Is the question really worth it? - No. Arming Ukraine, the United States does not risk anything, on the contrary, they are in profit - a constant hotbed of tension is beneficial to them. But if they place their soldiers on the border of Ukraine (they have the right), then what will you do? - Shoot the Americans? Or do you want to say "this will never happen"?
                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    The all-seeing eye of the satellite still makes it possible to assess the degree of threat, and the availability of means of destruction and methods of their delivery have long made this territory near Ochakov one of the priority targets for the first (preventive, retaliatory ...) strike.

                    Only we have satellites? In response to Ochakov and the Americans, are you thinking of getting some candy? I suppose a similar answer. Who is the winner?

                    Quote: Nyrobsky
                    So far, China and Russia are leading the foreign agenda of Afghanistan, which is an annoying factor for the Americans.

                    You are too categorical in your assessments. Don't lean close to China - doors can open suddenly
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2021 23: 03
                      Quote: Overlock
                      Is the question really worth it? - No. Arming Ukraine, the United States does not risk anything, on the contrary, they are in profit - a constant hotbed of tension is beneficial to them. But if they place their soldiers on the border of Ukraine (they have the right), then what will you do? - Shoot the Americans? Or do you want to say "this will never happen"?

                      The problem is that from a whole fist, everyone sees a single finger, and rarely does anyone see the whole fist. You write correctly - they arm and do not risk, they can deploy their soldiers, which is also true, but keeping 35-40 million of the country against the background of the deepening global economic crisis in general and the fall of the Ukrainian economy in particular is a very expensive pleasure. Moreover, the tendency to the fact that the Ukrainian economy will continue to degrade in an accelerated version is more than obvious. One loss of gas transit will carry 2,5 billion dollars past the treasury. After the number with motor sich, you can forget about investments from China for a long time.
                      You can pour in some tranches for another five years, give credit guarantees under the fact that someone will give real money, restructure debts in order to at least somehow keep Ukraine afloat, but this cannot continue indefinitely and whatever one may say, but must follow return that will cover all investment. Well, the Americans armed the Afghan army, stood there with an army of many thousands, but nevertheless, their presence with each day of their stay played to increase the resistance forces inside Afghanistan itself.
                      Quote: Overlock
                      Only we have satellites? In response to Ochakov and the Americans, are you thinking of getting some candy? I suppose a similar answer. Who is the winner?
                      I think that in the event of a conflict with Ukraine, these "rangers" will simply have the opportunity to observe from the sidelines how the military structure of Ukraine is cut out with decision-making centers at the level of the Ministry of Defense and the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Well, if they show insanity and strike at Russia, then most likely no one will sort anyone and humanity will enter a new stage of existence, by the way, not the best one.
                      Quote: Overlock
                      You are too categorical in your assessments. Don't lean close to China - doors can open suddenly

                      So no one says that in Afghanistan, China and Russia are acting shoulder to shoulder, or somehow working too openly with the new government. The whole point here is that the new government is betting on its relations with Russia and China.
                      And so I agree, the saying - "Trust but verify" has not been canceled.
        3. +1
          30 November 2021 18: 07
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          GDP either will have to increase the degree even more so that the Europeans and the Americans are afraid of a big war and back down with Ukraine and our red lines

          Will they be scared?
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          or hand over positions yourself

          Oh how he doesn't want to request
      2. +4
        30 November 2021 14: 25
        Looking back, you can come up with one version or another, in hindsight we are all strong. I am convinced that the most important real shortcoming of the Minsk agreements is the absence of measures approved by the parties on responsibility for their failure to comply. After Debaltseve, Ukraine could be pushed into signing such measures, because at that time the United States had not yet mastered the Ukrainian theater of operations as it is now, and the Europeans were not yet so dependent on the United States. The lack of such measures led to the fact that Ukraine was strengthened militarily and diplomatically, which led to Russia to zugzwang. Donbass cannot be given back. but it is also impossible to fight with Ukraine, it remains to maneuver, but, according to the well-known saying, it is dangerous to be defeated in the event of the slightest mistake on our part.
        1. With regard to paragraphs 1-3 of Vadim. According to item 1, the analogy is not visible in any way. The Ulster conflict was monopolar. In the case of Donbass, we have a bipolar conflict of interest.
        2. Only the front line was destroyed. Again, the same tale about the underdevelopment of Donbass. Donbass does not drive empty goods. With a minimum of capital investments, Donbass can become one of the drivers of the development of the Russian Federation, by the way, unlike Crimea. At the same time, the Chinese comrades are quite capable of taking part, but this does not mean falling under China.
        p. 3. Fiction that doesn't even have anything to discuss because it won't
      3. -2
        30 November 2021 19: 47
        Quote: Civil
        2. If so, this territory destroyed by the war will become part of Russia. Russia will receive sanctions and will be forced to economically "lie" under the PRC.

        Невероятно!
        Quote: Civil
        There is an option that Biden will surrender Ukraine under a kind of "neutral country" sauce.

        Especially!
    2. 0
      30 November 2021 19: 46
      Quote: bairat
      It is possible that at the meeting of the two leaders, Ukraine may become one of the main topics of negotiations to ensure global stability.

      Do not repeat fakes from Peskov and the author!
  2. +4
    30 November 2021 06: 23
    someone blah, blah, blah, and there people die
  3. +4
    30 November 2021 06: 30
    Moscow has come to the conclusion that there can be no compromise on Donbass in this format, and will look for other options.
    For example?
    1. +2
      30 November 2021 17: 59
      Quote: parusnik
      For example?

      No options request
      1. +1
        30 November 2021 18: 37
        From the word completely ..
        1. +2
          30 November 2021 18: 37
          Quote: parusnik
          From the word completely ..

          That's it! Only after a good booze can the pickle be mistaken for salvation
          1. +1
            30 November 2021 18: 39
            Only after a good booze can the pickle be mistaken for salvation
            good
  4. +1
    30 November 2021 06: 33
    The worst outcome is one in which both the population of the Russian Federation and the Russians of Ukraine will completely lose faith in the Kremlin's ability to protect their interests. And there it is not far to a new liberal pro-Western putsch. Russians can forgive the authorities for everything except weakness and lies.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -4
      30 November 2021 07: 51
      Quote: avia12005
      The worst outcome is one in which both the population of the Russian Federation and the Russians of Ukraine will completely lose faith in the Kremlin's ability to protect their interests. And there it is not far to a new liberal pro-Western putsch. Russians can forgive the authorities for everything except weakness and lies.
      This will not lead to a putsch in Russia, but it can lead to a putsch of Ukrainians in Ukraine, if propaganda is carried out correctly. especially. that the United States, represented by H. Clinton, once lit up in its intentions.
      In general, it was not in vain that Zelensky became agitated. Namely.

      Right here just right to recall the plans of the US State Department regarding the future structure of Ukraine itself. And think for what and for whom are Ukrainians actually fighting?
      Washington’s plans for Ukraine have been known since the time of H. Clinton’s presidential election race, which she lost.
      Attack Hillary Clinton, losing to Trump in the presidential elections in the United States, in despair we will last our trump card, one might say, let her slip about the true intentions of the US State Department regarding the United States and Ukraine.... Yes, in fact, other Americans spoke about this, but not as frankly as Hillary Clinton.

      First of all. H. Clinton said that the United States is not eternal due to the fact that there is the most dangerous and terrible volcano on Earth - the Yellowstone supervolcano, capable of destroying the United States, and that because of this, the Americans need to look for other places for their residence in advance.
      Here it is just right to recall the idea of ​​Academician Sakharov in the event of a nuclear war with the USSR to destroy the United States with a retaliatory strike as a result of a nuclear bombardment to artificially activate this volcano.
      And secondly. That Ukraine will be for the Americans the very thing they need to move to permanent residence - a place with an excellent climate, like on the Atlantic coast of the United States.

      In this case, according to Washington's plans, Ukraine is now being cleaned out of the indigenous population of Ukraine for the resettlement of Americans from the United States to the lands of Ukraine. And this applies not only to the South-East of Ukraine, but in general to the entire territory of Ukraine.
      In this case, according to Washington's plan, there should be no more than 20 million inhabitants in AMERICAN Ukraine - and this together with the Americans (!) - should be no more than XNUMX million.
      Of the 40-45 million Ukrainians themselves, it is planned to leave 4-5 million. The rest of the Ukrainians, who will not be biologically "utilized" as a consumable in battles and themselves will not want to leave Ukraine, the US State Department plans to forcibly relocate to North Africa and the Middle East.
      So there is no room at all for the residence of Ukrainian NATIONALISTS of any kind in AMERICAN Ukraine! For any nationalism on the territory of the United States itself is not expected from the word AT ALL!

      Do not be shy! We must tell the truth, no matter how monstrous it may be!

      Hence the question for Bandera and VSUshniki! For what and against whom are you actually fighting at all?
      In the DPR and LPR, residents are fighting for themselves and for their land in the South-East of Ukraine, which Poroshenko gave almost to a free arena for a period of 50 + 5 years with the extension to the Biden family.
      But you, Bandera, what are you fighting for? For at least temporarily satisfying to devour and someone with impunity to rape and rob? And then what will happen to you?
      Then there is no place for you in the American way in Ukraine! You are not oligarchs, you are just a consumable. You are a plebs for gentlemen from Washington.
    3. +4
      30 November 2021 10: 07
      Russians can forgive the authorities for everything except weakness and lies.
      - the latter must be deleted, the authorities always lie, somewhere more, somewhere less ... hi
    4. +2
      30 November 2021 10: 18
      Are not pro-Western liberals at the head now?
    5. 0
      30 November 2021 20: 00
      Quote: avia12005
      Russians can forgive the authorities for everything except weakness and lies.

      Have the lie already been forgiven?
  5. +4
    30 November 2021 06: 39
    That is, at the highest level, Moscow recognized the Minsk agreements as a dead end
    Where is it said? Is it a quote from Putin's statement inserted by the author himself into the text,
    “In words, our partners in the Normandy Quartet - FRG, France, do not dispute the significance of the Minsk agreements. But in reality, unfortunately, they indulge the course of the current Kiev leadership to dismantle them, which leads the negotiations and the settlement itself, unfortunately, to a dead end. "
    talks about it? As I understand it, this is not about a dead-end agreement, but about the position of the "partners" who, by their own agreements, are trying to rewrite and interpret otherwise, thus leading the negotiating position to a dead end. Ours, from such curtsies, refuse! This is understandable, Donbass, this is not distant Kosovo.

    With its latest statements, the Russian leadership demonstrates that it is not on its way with European guarantors and is not averse to discussing this problem with the American overlord of Ukraine.
    Well, there will be no separate negotiations! It will be either "soft", about the inadmissibility of aggravation and guarantees to extinguish the shelling in Donbass, or "tough" - to kill our citizens, we will not allow!
  6. -6
    30 November 2021 06: 41
    It is necessary to play for time, economically and energetically to press Ukraine until it explodes from within.
    1. +11
      30 November 2021 07: 39
      Quote: Pessimist22
      It is necessary to play for time, economically and energetically to press Ukraine until it explodes from within.

      As the past years have shown, nothing will explode there from the inside, just some oligarchic groups are replacing others under the strict leadership of the United States. The majority of the population is passive and duped by the media; there can be no revolution there either without external leadership.
      You shouldn't rely on the economy and energy either: when it presses hard, the West will throw in another tranche of the IMF, Pennsylvania coal and reverse gas, if only this abscess continues to poison the Russian Federation. This problem can now be solved only by force.
  7. -1
    30 November 2021 07: 51
    Moscow has come to the conclusion that there can be no compromise on Donbass in this format, and will look for other options.
    ... Surrender Donbass?
    1. -2
      30 November 2021 08: 23
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      ... Surrender Donbass?

      The author is misleading readers. Moscow insists on the implementation of the "Minsk agreements" and the UN resolution.

      1. 0
        30 November 2021 17: 56
        Quote: Boris55
        Moscow insists on the implementation of the "Minsk agreements" and the UN resolution.

        The "Minsk agreements" are dead - forget it.
        1. 0
          2 December 2021 08: 13
          Quote: Silvestr
          The "Minsk agreements" are dead - forget it.

          They don't talk about the dead for so long and so much.
      2. -5
        30 November 2021 20: 47
        Minsk agreements = surrender of Donbass (and not only).
    2. +1
      30 November 2021 17: 57
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      ... Surrender Donbass?

      How can you surrender what belongs to Ukraine - after all, this is exactly what Putin and Lavrov say
  8. -2
    30 November 2021 09: 20
    To date, there is neither the strength nor the means to carry out any drastic actions in Ukraine, neither we nor the United States. I believe the only correct course in this situation is the actual integration of the territory and population of the LPNR into Russia, while formally maintaining the fulfillment of the requirements of the Minsk agreements. Since the option of Kiev's implementation of these agreements seems almost impossible. At the same time, completely cut off the supply of energy resources to Kiev. Let the West spend on their content in full.
    In fact, this is happening today.
    1. 0
      30 November 2021 17: 55
      Quote: Falcon IBA
      To date, there is neither the strength nor the means to carry out any drastic actions in Ukraine, neither we nor the United States.

      Humorist! This is about the United States and its allies!
  9. +3
    30 November 2021 09: 58
    It seems that ours did not expect such a stubborn US reaction to the situation in Ukraine. After the coup, Russia seized the initiative, hence the Crimea and Donbass. After the defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it was decided that we would press it and so on. We gave up the initiative and now we are in a zungzwanzig situation. Whatever we do, the result will be bad. We know how to take an enchanting first step, slap in the face, and then, we begin to search for a peaceful solution. This - detente and Helsinki led, in the end, to the collapse of the USSR, now the situation is the same. 2014 years have passed since 7, and the ayankes simply cannot afford such a defeat any longer. Cold War 2.0 is taking shape, and neither Russia nor the United States wants to start it with defeat in Europe. Our enemies: USA, Germany. The EU, England do not understand another language, like the language of power. The second Yalta is possible only after the capture of Berlin)))) Now it looks more like 41.g
    1. -2
      30 November 2021 17: 54
      Quote: Petrik66
      The second Yalta is possible only after the capture of Berlin

      Do the Germans know? Do you agree?
      1. +2
        30 November 2021 19: 31
        Quote: Silvestr
        Do the Germans know? Do you agree?

        They know, they agree.)))) There are already pipes stretched to them, already they are going to pump hydrogen to them. A little bit differently today Berlin is taken by "our" authorities, real estate is bought there, but families are sent there, one hope, maybe they will stay there.
    2. 0
      1 December 2021 12: 13
      We gave up the initiative and now we are in a zungzwanzig situation. Whatever we do, the result will be bad.
      The initiative may have been given away, but the process is going on. And this process destroys Ukraine, and completely.
      Another thing, we expected that Ukraine, being on the edge of the abyss, would change its mind and turn around.
      It would be so, but the geldings suppressed (literally and figuratively) any dissent in / in Ukraine. This extended the existence of the hostile state "Bandera Ukraine". It was extended, spitting on "freedom of speech and democracy," so glorified in the West and under whose flag the "Maidan" was carried out.
      In fact, for the sake of preserving hostile Ukraine, the geldings sacrificed their main weapon - Freedom of Speech and Democracy.
      And this is a huge defeat for the United States.
      2014 years have passed since 7
      Yes, the conflict has dragged on and the costs are borne not only by the United States, but also by us.
      It is another matter that for the United States these costs from the protracted conflict are much stronger. During this time, their main economic rival, China, has become very strong.
      And now they have two enemies: Russia and China at the same time. In addition, destructive processes are underway in America itself.
      ---
      As for Ukraine, now (especially with the commissioning of the SP-2) it has one way - into the abyss.
      What will happen after Ukraine is not yet clear, it is only clear that there will be no more Ukraine.
      1. +1
        2 December 2021 09: 23
        Any policy is cynical, the policy of the Anglo-Saxons is cynical squared. Freedom is the right to choose what is beneficial for the States at the moment, freedom of speech is the freedom to write and say what at the moment is definitely true from the American point of view. Nobody is naive in our government now, and even before. Nobody is going to negotiate with us. there is a desire to deceive, sell the ears of a dead donkey "dearly" while the Yankees are busy with our Chinese "friends". When they need our oil, they buy it without unnecessary pumping, but the gas pumped up, it is very dirty ........ Only friendship with them can be worse than enmity with the Anglo-Saxons. Enemies, they are enemies in Africa. The pitiful babble of perestroika, for which it is a shame even now, should be forgotten about global values.
  10. -2
    30 November 2021 10: 02
    Whoever is a fisherman knows that there are times when the line gets so tangled that it is not that difficult to untangle, but even impossible and meaningless.
    The situation is the same with the Minsk Agreements.
    They turned into a tangled, tight "Gordian knot".
    Nobody knows how to unravel, other people's proposals are not accepted, their own attempts confuse the situation even more.
    There is only one way out of the situation - to cut the "Gordian knot".
    I see it like this - Russia's withdrawal from the Minsk agreements and the recognition of the independence of the republics of Donbass. Holding a referendum there and joining Russia.
    Maybe then other Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine will want to hold their own referendums ?!
    We are guaranteed problems with the West in any case. So why be afraid of them? Sanctions are not the end of life.
    Not a single operation of the Great Patriotic War was complete without losses. So shouldn't they have been carried out? Or is something different now?
    1. 0
      30 November 2021 10: 56
      I still use the Neva coil wink I untangled such beards, at first I could not believe it myself ... you just need to have patience winked ... I don’t think there are no such people in the Presidential Administration hi
    2. +1
      30 November 2021 17: 53
      Quote: prior
      I see it like this - Russia's withdrawal from the Minsk agreements and the recognition of the independence of the republics of Donbass. Holding a referendum there and joining Russia.

      1. This will be recognized by the world as a violation of the post-war borders (Helsinki) with all the consequences.
      2. First, hold a referendum on this in the LPR. More than 60% do not receive a Russian passport
      3.
      Quote: prior
      Maybe then other Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine will want to hold their own referendums ?!

      What a fright?
      Quote: prior
      Sanctions are not the end of life.

      Whose? Kovalchuk and Rotenberg with Ko- no. And for yours, quite
      1. The comment was deleted.
  11. -6
    30 November 2021 10: 03
    Does Russia have options? In my opinion, in fact, there is a sadistic choice: to lose PSV or to completely lose face. And, horrible as it may seem, the best chance for Russia is to give up the Donbass and allow Khlamina everything. You may have to give up the Crimea too. The main thing is to understand that Russia does not have the opportunity to win, that is, to cut off Donbass, legalize Crimea and lift the sanctions. The best thing to do is to minimize your losses. Roughly like an empire in the Crimean. And of these three tasks, only one is feasible - to lift the sanctions.
    1. +1
      30 November 2021 12: 12
      to give Crimea is the disintegration of Russia
    2. 0
      30 November 2021 12: 17
      It will not be possible to minimize. They will crush you to complete surrender. It is necessary to win by defeating and annexing Ukraine. Complete lustration. Tse Europe? - outerwear and freight train to Europe!
      1. -4
        30 November 2021 14: 00
        Don't you think there are worse things than complete surrender? After all, we can get into an absolute embargo, and that's not all. In my opinion, the choice is obvious between the conditional Poland and the DPRK.
        1. +2
          30 November 2021 20: 20
          Worse than complete surrender is slavery and genocide following the surrender.
          The choice between Vlasov and the militia.
      2. -1
        30 November 2021 17: 48
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        It is necessary to win by defeating and annexing Ukraine.

        Get started.
        1. -2
          30 November 2021 18: 31
          Can't wait to give up?
          1. -1
            30 November 2021 18: 34
            Quote: Mitroha
            Can't wait to give up?

            I really do not like narrow-minded people who consider themselves geniuses.
            1. -3
              30 November 2021 18: 44
              Quote: Silvestr
              Quote: Mitroha
              Can't wait to give up?

              I really do not like narrow-minded people who consider themselves geniuses.

              How can you put up with yourself?
              1. -2
                30 November 2021 22: 20
                Quote: Mitroha
                How can you put up with yourself?

                Unlike you, I read and think wassat
                1. -1
                  30 November 2021 22: 31
                  Apparently, you are equally bad at both. lol
                  1. -2
                    30 November 2021 22: 32
                    Quote: Mitroha
                    Apparently, you are equally bad at both.

                    At least you didn't have any counterarguments - a weakling. Read books better ABC
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2021 22: 33
                      Quote: Silvestr
                      Read books better ABC

                      The only book you've mastered?
        2. 0
          30 November 2021 20: 24
          Always ready!
          But in fact, back in 2005, Nenka sent such a maidanut from Sumy back. As this chief engineer began to bang, business trips and lump sums smiled at him. The guys from Transnistria carried out the entire commissioning for a small bonus.
    3. +1
      30 November 2021 17: 50
      Quote: Basarev
      And, horrible as it may seem, the best chance for Russia is to give up the Donbass and allow Khlamina everything.

      Then it will be necessary
      Quote: Basarev
      ... give away Crimea too

      The trap turned out
      1. -4
        30 November 2021 18: 31
        Quote: Silvestr
        Quote: Basarev
        And, horrible as it may seem, the best chance for Russia is to give up the Donbass and allow Khlamina everything.

        Then it will be necessary
        Quote: Basarev
        ... give away Crimea too

        The trap turned out
        The wet dreams of a provocateur
        1. 0
          30 November 2021 18: 33
          Quote: Mitroha
          The wet dreams of a provocateur

          Develop them strategist
          1. -4
            30 November 2021 18: 45
            Time will put everything in its place, and I think the result will not suit you Sumerobots
            1. +1
              30 November 2021 20: 16
              Quote: Mitroha
              Time will put everything in its place, and I think the result will not suit you Sumerobots

              The absence of arguments is replaced by insults. Is it in Russian?
              1. -5
                30 November 2021 21: 24
                Have you completely forgotten Russian? An insult is when a person is unjustly called names. And when they deservedly say who he really is, this is a statement of fact. hi
            2. 0
              30 November 2021 22: 21
              Quote: Mitroha
              Time will put everything in its place, and I think the result will not suit you Sumerobots

              Go to the doctor, he will give a pill
      2. +2
        30 November 2021 19: 38
        Quote: Silvestr
        It is then that it will be necessary ...

        This will be their end, they will not go for it. There will be some "black colonels", and since 2014 they have been using the environment of enemies and sanctions to raise the "spirituality" of the electorate.
      3. 0
        30 November 2021 20: 28
        This is not a trap, but a complete surrender.
        Follow the Kaliningrad region, Karelia, Kuriles, Sakhalin ...
        And now, seeing that in the name of wearing the proud name of traitors is the jamon, we surrender territories without a fight - what will China do by joining the partition of Russia?
        1. +2
          30 November 2021 22: 22
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          And now, seeing that in the name of wearing the proud name of traitors is the jamon, we surrender territories without a fight - what will China do by joining the partition of Russia?

          It is China that wins in this situation.
          1. 0
            1 December 2021 08: 25
            Will win, and EVERYTHING!
    4. +3
      30 November 2021 19: 21
      Quote: Basarev
      And of these three tasks, only one is feasible - to lift the sanctions.

      This task is not feasible in the short term.
      Quote: Basarev
      the best chance for Russia is to give up the Donbass and allow everything to Khlamina. You may have to give up the Crimea too.

      This will be the end of the existing regime, the authorities will not agree to this. It is easier for them to establish something like a Pinochet or Musolinin regime (although it is moving towards this anyway). Can you count the number of articles in the last week on VO about Ukraine? Have you read the comments under the articles? There is an active "dehumanization" of the Ukrainians (not the fascist state of Ukraine, but the Ukrainians), they are denied the right to have their own language, their own culture, and the same is on TV. Why do you think this is done? With our "successes" in the economy, the continuing decline in the standard of living of the population, being "surrounded by enemies" is the only way at the top to stay in power.
      PS More than 50% of the population expect a further drop in living standards.
      1. 0
        30 November 2021 20: 18
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        With our "successes" in the economy, the continuing decline in the standard of living of the population, being "surrounded by enemies" is the only way at the top to stay in power.

        Therefore, a "small victorious war" is needed and therefore
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        There is an active "dehumanization" of the Ukrainians (not the fascist state of Ukraine, but the Ukrainians), they are denied the right to have their own language, their own culture, and the same is on TV.

        But it will turn out like that of Nicholas II
        1. +2
          30 November 2021 20: 35
          Quote: Overlock
          Therefore, a "small victorious war" is needed and therefore

          I'm afraid that the issue with her has already been resolved.
          Quote: Overlock
          But it will turn out like that of Nicholas II

          It's good if so, or maybe some home-grown musolini will be pulled out of the closet first. And the ending, yes, will be the same. The people in the shops, at work, he is very angry, a little more and will want to bleed someone.
  12. +2
    30 November 2021 10: 50
    In general, it is not clear - why was it necessary to sign these agreements, if it was initially clear that the Banderastas would not comply with it? Who did you agree with? Parasha, Durchinov, Yaytsenyukh, Tyagnysrak are creatures that have nowhere to be branded. According to them, the price is a broken penny.
    1. +1
      30 November 2021 17: 48
      Quote: TermNachTER
      In general, it is not clear - why was it necessary to sign these agreements, if it was initially clear that the Banderastas would not comply with it?

      Because it was Surkov who considered Poroshenko his own, and it was he who had the idea to recognize Poroshenko as the president of Ukraine. But something went wrong
  13. +9
    30 November 2021 12: 27
    In this regard, the revelations of the former Kremlin curator of Ukraine Surkov, who, on the instructions of the president, played the main role of the architect of the Minsk agreements, are interesting.

    I remember that then there was such a version.
    That after the "Debaltsevsky boiler", it was planned to take Mariupol,
    which was practically unprotected. And Mariupol, this is Akhmetov's patrimony, who howled in front of our "oligarchs" - help me out colleagues.
    Russian "oligarchs" reacted through Surkov (curator for Ukraine), and the offensive on Mariupol was stopped. And Surkov got busy with the Minsk Agreements.
    At the same time, the program for the creation of the region - "Novorossiya" was stopped.
    All her inspirers quickly, one by one, left for the "other world".
    In my opinion, there were two strategic mistakes made in Ukraine:
    - despite the obvious coup, Russia recognized the president
    Poroshenko.
    - Russia refused to create "Novorossiya", one step before
    her.
    Now we have what we have.
    1. +4
      30 November 2021 13: 05
      Everything turned off even earlier when an envoy from Switzerland came to Putin about the permission for the army to operate abroad, Putin immediately forgot.
      1. -6
        30 November 2021 18: 34
        Quote: Kronos
        Everything turned off even earlier when an envoy from Switzerland came to Putin about the permission for the army to operate abroad, Putin immediately forgot.

        Did you meet him personally and were present during the conversation?
        1. +2
          30 November 2021 20: 19
          Quote: Mitroha
          Did you meet him personally and were present during the conversation?

          Reading you understand - you are in the thick of things and their participant. Fabulous!
    2. +3
      30 November 2021 16: 05
      And the residents of Mariupol were waiting for release ... And now, yes, we have what we have ..
  14. BAI
    -1
    30 November 2021 12: 53
    Minsk-1 was signed in September 2014 after the defeat of the Ukrainian army in the "boilers" near Saur Mogila and Ilovaisk militia of Donbass with the participation of several Russian battalion tactical groupswhose list of participants has never been revealed,

    Does the author have proof of the presence of the RF Armed Forces there? Besides the passports that Poroshenko was brandishing?
    What is this peremptory statement based on?
    1. +1
      30 November 2021 13: 03
      The participation of what was called the north wind was not hidden from the participants in the events. Without them, this defeat of the Ukrainian army was impossible.
  15. +1
    30 November 2021 16: 17
    I read the Minsk agreements even when they were just signed. Even then it was clear that they were impracticable. There are several reasons. One of them is that Ukraine did not recognize the representatives of the LDNR as a legal party; they did not participate thus. in negotiations and did not sign anything.
    Nakoy there was to involve Germany and France (well, except for giving the document itself more legitimacy) - it is generally incomprehensible. Mongolia and Finland could have been invited with the same result
  16. +1
    30 November 2021 17: 45
    Minsk is dead. Everyone understands this - Kozak, Putin and Europe and Ukraine. No one will be able to force Kiev to carry out "Minsk", because, as it turned out from the diplomatic post published by Lavrov, Paris and Berlin support the same opinion. The situation is stalemate.
    1. -4
      30 November 2021 20: 39
      Quote: Silvestr
      Minsk is dead.

      He was dead, as he was taken under the influence of the Russian offensive in the summer of 2014 by three battalion groups.
      Adopted under pressure from France and Germany.
  17. +1
    30 November 2021 18: 09
    A spokesman for Peskov on November 19 confirmed that the Ukrainian issue will be discussed at a meeting between Putin and Biden in December.

    "Blizzard sweeps" Sands, wishful thinking. At the moment, Peskov's proposals are swept aside by the White House
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  21. -1
    30 November 2021 20: 34
    Surkov is still a shot.
    For which he got ribs from Putin's guards, for the failure of the meeting.
    Listen to him, do not respect yourself.
  22. -1
    30 November 2021 20: 42
    I think the meeting at the top will be reminiscent of Molotov's visit to Germany in November 1940.
    They will talk about peace, but think about the upcoming war. They will try to buy our oligarchs with the prospect of lifting sanctions for participation in the anti-Chinese coalition. They will announce the red lines of the West in the post-Soviet space and look at the reaction.
    The trouble is that it will not be difficult for the Anglo-Saxons to unleash a war in Europe. Even in the event of a military defeat, they will retain their territory and dominance in the oceans. And with the resources of the entire planet, with the exception of Russia, China and occupied continental Europe (even if so!), They can wage trench warfare and blockade.
    1. 0
      30 November 2021 23: 38
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Even in the event of a military defeat, they will retain their territory and dominance in the oceans. And with the resources of the entire planet, with the exception of Russia, China and occupied continental Europe (even if so!), They can wage trench warfare and blockade.

      What are all the resources of the entire planet you are talking about: can you list them? Yes, how could you say about all the resources, excluding Russia, China, continental Europe?
      By the way, in the event of a military defeat, in the modern world, the British Isles will face the same fate as continental Europe.

      What kind of trench warfare are you talking about, let alone a blockade, all the more so if Europe, Russia, and China are all for one (at least even with resources). Calculate the land area of ​​the earth, excluding Antarctica.
      1. -1
        1 December 2021 08: 32
        We with China and Europe make up 6,8% of the planet's territory (510 km²). The rest is owned by the one who dominates the seas and oceans. And Antarctica should not be ruled out - a key base for three oceans in the southern hemisphere.
  23. 0
    4 December 2021 21: 07
    The situation with "Minsk" could be moved off the ground, and even reset to zero, just at the diplomatic level, slightly changing the emphasis. Namely, to recognize the US invasion of Ukraine and its further occupation by the United States.
    From this moment, even if Russia is considered a party to the conflict (although, they already believe), it will not be an aggressor, but an ally of that part of the population (LDNR) that resists the occupation and opposes the hybrid aggression of the United States.
    And from this position not a step to the side. And any political decision on Ukraine should be taken in the context of this position.

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